Weightlifting is a waste of Time

Dr. John Jaquish, PhD discusses his book: Weight Lifting Is a Waste of Time: So Is Cardio, and There’s a Better Way to Have the Body You Want. He reveals how he gained 45 lbs of muscle. This was done by using his invention the X3 bar for only 10 minutes a day! He also discusses his invention Osteostrong for the treatment of osteoporosis.

Full Transcript

Dr. Greg Dennis: Welcome to Fit Rx with Dr. Greg Dennis. Join me as we challenge the standard sick model of healthcare. This is your source for everything health, wellness, fitness, prevention, biohacking, and more. Hello, everyone.

Today’s guest is Dr. John Jaquish. He is a Ph.D. in biomedical engineering. He has invented several products, one for osteoporosis, which I want to ask him about, and then the X3 system of weightlifting, which we’re going to talk most about.

He recently wrote a book, which is what caught my eye, titled Weight Lifting Is a Waste of Time: So Is Cardio, and There’s a Better Way to Have the Body You Want, so anxious to get into that book. So Dr. Jaquish, welcome to the show.

Dr. John Jaquish: Dr. Dennis, hey. Thanks for letting me be here. This is great.

Dr. Greg Dennis: Yeah. Yeah. So let’s start, tell the audience just a little bit about your research and how you came to first discover the OsteoStrong. Is that what it’s called?

Dr. John Jaquish: I’m the inventor of the OsteoStrong.

Dr. Greg Dennis: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So tell us how you discovered that and then how that led into the X3 device, and then what motivated you to write this book? So just tell us a little bit about your background.

Dr. John Jaquish: Sure. My mother was diagnosed with osteoporosis 13 years ago. She read about the side effects of the drugs that she was being prescribed. It was standard bisphosphonate treatment-

Dr. Greg Dennis: Sure.

Dr. John Jaquish: … and she wanted nothing to do with it. She read the side effects and she said, “I’d rather just worry about a fracture than have these side effects. She felt like she was too young to have these problems. She was in her late 60s, and so I said, “How about I take a look at this dysfunction?” It just so happened the dysfunction that I looked at that she was diagnosed with was more dysfunction of deconditioning.

I like that word “deconditioning,” and it was described as such in very limited literature. So I thought, “Well, anything that’s deconditioned can become reconditioned,” but it’s not seen that way. It’s like a one-way street. You start losing bone density and well, you’re just getting old. Well, but metabolic syndrome isn’t just getting old, it’s because you eat Twinkies and ice cream, that’s why you have metabolic syndrome. So okay, and we can reverse that. We know we can. So what if bone density is the same thing?

Dr. John Jaquish: What if it’s environmental-based? Of course, we know that about just about every cell now, like you put the cell in the right environment and it will thrive. You put in the wrong environment and it will suffer. I made the decision that I was going to approach this by finding the world’s super responders to bone density, who had the highest bone density? How did they build it? Once understand how they built it, how can I apply that to an elderly population?

My mother does not like being described as elderly, but that’s what my intention was. So once I did a literature review, it was very obvious who had the most powerful bone, it was gymnasts by an astonishing degree. So when I looked at these gymnasts, they built this bone density because of the way they hit the ground. It was the impact they were absorbed in their bodies. Now, a typical gymnast retires when they’re 19- years old, so there’s a reason for that because they get very injured. They can have catastrophic fractures, but it doesn’t mean they’re not building high bone density.

Dr. John Jaquish: So I’m looking at this impact and what it does to the bone structure, the bone matrix. So you cut away the bone, and some of this for your audience, I know you know, but you cut away at a bone and it looks like a honeycomb. There are all these little walls inside the bone and by compressing the bone from end to end, so this is my humorous bone. If I compress it from here to here pinching it this way from end-to-end, then I can alter the shape and length of the bone briefly.

It has to be at the appropriate force and then the bone springs back into position, but the bone matrix is stimulated to pull in minerals and then decalcify. My intention was, was to build a set of impact emulation devices, so giving the benefit of high impact without the risk. So it’s very slow and controlled loading, computer-controlled and controlled by robotics when it came to positioning. So we always had the same positioning so there were no surprises. The person was in the right impact-ready position.

Dr. John Jaquish: That’s what I refer to it in my first book, which is called Osteogenic Loading. So when people would go through the therapy, they would get a measure of functional bone performance, which in my opinion, my opinion is pretty biased by the way, because I can see what the thing does and I’ve been very close to it. But I think a functional test of bone is more important than a picture of bone, like a DEXA because a DEXA is a dual x-ray.

So the standard of diagnostics is a picture. Why don’t we have a dynamic test? The devices ended up becoming OsteoStrong devices, that’s what the brand is called. There are 150 OsteoStrong clinics around the world in eight different countries. You can go in there and you get a diagnostic measure of your bone performance each week, but you also get to see it go up per week as it’s improving, and so that was the discovery. That’s what I developed for my mother. Then within 18 months after I started treating her with a prototype, she had the bones of a 30-year-old. She had a T-score of almost zero.

Dr. Greg Dennis: The audience may not care about this, but I want to know, but I’m assuming she had an initial DEXA scan.

Dr. John Jaquish: Yeah.

Dr. Greg Dennis: Do you remember what that number was, and then what was her follow-up EDXA?

Dr. John Jaquish: She was right at the diagnosis level-

Dr. Greg Dennis: Okay.

Dr. John Jaquish: ….and then she was at negative 0.1.

Dr. Greg Dennis: So she dropped about two-and-a-half

Dr. John Jaquish: She never really got to zero, but she’s covered in -.1.

Dr. Greg Dennis: That was in 18 months, though.

Dr. John Jaquish: In 18 months.

Dr. Greg Dennis: Okay. So this is a device that they use what, daily, weekly?

Dr. John Jaquish: One time per week, because the metabolic rate of bone is higher than different tissues of the body.

Dr. Greg Dennis: Okay.

Dr. John Jaquish: Right. So when you do cardiovascular exercise, your lungs can recover faster than your muscles. You can be ready for another run later the same day from a cardiac perspective, but your legs might say no.

Dr. Greg Dennis: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Okay.

Dr. John Jaquish: So different metabolic rates are different then.

Dr. Greg Dennis: So they go to one of these clinics, use one of these devices, and then how long does it take when they use one of these devices?

Dr. John Jaquish: Using all four of them in one section, it was about 10 minutes.

Dr. Greg Dennis: Okay.

Dr. John Jaquish: Not long.

Dr. Greg Dennis: I see.

Dr. John Jaquish: They usually do it once a week.

Dr. Greg Dennis: They do it once a week for how long, typically?

Dr. John Jaquish: We recommend two years so they can get to the point where they’re approaching peak bone mass because if you get somebody who’s 80-years-old or 75-years-old back to peak bone mass, they keep that effect. They keep that higher bone density for 30 years. There’s quite a bit of research on that too, and so it’s not like working a muscle. I’m a big, strong muscular guy, but if I stop exercising, I’ll start losing that, detraining begins in 10 days.

Dr. Greg Dennis: Okay. I’m a family practice doctor, and I think the current treatment for osteoporosis is crap, to put it mildly. It doesn’t work. A lot of the medications are harmful, potentially.

Dr. John Jaquish: Some of the side effects are worse.

Dr. Greg Dennis: Yeah. So this is very intriguing to me. How does I, as a doctor, go about getting patients to do something like this? How does that all work?

Dr. John Jaquish: You would just refer. You would just send them to the location.

Dr. Greg Dennis: So we would just need to find a clinic near us. I don’t know if there is any, and then if it’s not-

Dr. John Jaquish: Where are you located? Oklahoma, outside of Oklahoma City.

Dr. John Jaquish: Okay.

Dr. Greg Dennis: I just have to look. So anyways, and then if not, so somebody opens a clinic and they just have these devices and the patients just come in and I’m assuming probably insurance doesn’t pay for it. How does all that work?

Dr. John Jaquish: No. No, it’s just cash.

Dr. Greg Dennis: Yeah. Just cash price?

Dr. John Jaquish: Wouldn’t you know? It is. Well, the problem with insurance and for those who don’t know, who are listening, what you pay to get your insurance payment sometimes is more than the payment because you have to have an entire staff that all they do is know how navigate the complexities of insurance companies. By the time you end up paying your staff, sometimes you’re losing money.

Dr. Greg Dennis: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No doubt. Well, yeah. Most of my patients that if they’re listening they know, but I’m still in corporate medicine right now for six more weeks. So I’m getting out, and I’m actually my wife’s the doctor, I’m joining her and doing just a cash-based practice. It’s like a monthly membership fee type of thing, so no insurance. That’s crap too, but different topic.

Dr. John Jaquish: That’s our problem in this country. It’s the middle man.

Dr. Greg Dennis: Yeah. Yeah. But I tell patients all the time, they’re like, “Well, why doesn’t insurance pay for it?” I’m like, “Look, insurance, they don’t care what’s best for you. They want what’s cheapest,” because I do some hormone replacement and they’re like, “Why won’t insurance pay for it? Because there’s cheaper alternatives that they’re not good for you, but they don’t care about that. They want what’s cheapest.

Dr. John Jaquish: Well, what’s interesting is I’m trying to be well-liked by insurance companies because right now, they’re part of the landscape, so we’re not going to be able to just blow them up. But I do know, and I’ve heard from some actuarials at big insurance companies, which I will not mention because these people were nice enough to tell me this. They would rather you never worked out, sit on the couch and eat Cheetos than go to the gym, because the cost of the orthopedic surgeries associated with amateur exercise is anyways greater than that of two heart attacks over the course of someone’s life. They figure by the time you get a second heart attack, you’re dead.

Dr.Greg Dennis: Yeah. Yeah. Crazy. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. John Jaquish: But because that’s how they make decisions it’s just like, “What’s going to cost us more? Okay, we’ll encourage the opposing view.

Dr.Greg Dennis: Well, I don’t imagine you will get this covered by insurance anytime soon, because as I’ve learned as I’ve started doing this podcast and just more I investigate, there’s so much influence by big pharma. Well, I love the concept of your osteopetrosis treatment because like I said, we don’t have anything good right now.

Dr. John Jaquish: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dr. Greg Dennis: Obviously, we encourage patients to do weight-bearing exercise, but these 75, 80-year-old women that’s really all they can do is walk.

Dr. John Jaquish: You want to hear some bad news?

Dr. Greg Dennis: Yeah.

Dr. John Jaquish: The minimum dose-response for triggering bone growth is 4.2 multiples of body weight. So even weightlifters, are not heavy enough, but OsteoStrong is way heavier than that. It just, you only move a millimeter or two because it’s that very specific impact-ready position, and that’s how you get these huge forces through the body. So we have in the clinical trial, and this leads to the second part of your question, we had de-conditioned elderly women who were osteopenic. We couldn’t usefully osteoporotic. People used a different trial in London, in England. You can’t tell somebody not to take their phosphonate, that’s unethical. Actually, no, I take that back. There were a few osteoporotic people who were just like, “I’m not taking the meds,” so they could be in the study.

Dr. John Jaquish: So we had a mix of osteopenic and osteoporotic. They were putting six, seven times their body weight through their hip joint. Now, these are not athletes, these are women who have never exercised. Within six months, some of them were using seven times their body weight to load the hip and they were growing bone density very quickly. They felt fantastic, also from a psychological perspective and you’ll be able to see this concerning your patients. They felt like they could control their health. They finally, for the first time in their lives were like, “Wow, look, a metric of my health that I have some control over.” Most people think their health is something out of control and it’s frustrating and they don’t want to talk about it. So in fact, when you go to the Tony Robbins conferences, he’s a partner in the OsteoStrong business.

Dr. John Jaquish: So on the health day, which is the last day, he starts talking about, “Today, we’re going to go over nutrition. We’re going to go over exercise.” You can see the people that need to hear it the most, they all file right out of the room and go to the airport early. They don’t want to hear it, a frustrating subject. So you get to see these people controlling a metric of their health; however, when I was looking at this in the London study, I thought, “Wow, look at these. These aren’t particularly strong women getting stronger. Look at how much force they can create and handle in the impact-ready position.” If you compare that, and I did, to the NIH database, the database that the National Institute of Health keeps for all kinds of health metrics, body composition, exercise statistics, everything. I think there are about 20,000 people in the NIH’s database and they add 2000 a year.

Dr. John Jaquish: The analysis of being in this database shows that people were pushing seven times what they would normally do in a gym on one of these devices. So I thought, “Wow, that means in a specific position, people are seven times more powerful than they are in the weaker range of motion, because when you choose a weight to lift, you’re going to choose the weight that you can handle in the weak part of the movement, and by definition, you have to. So I’m looking at data that’s showing me that we have a sevenfold variance. Well, if that’s true, then weightlifting is a waste of time because we need a weight that changes as we move. We do not need to be lifting the same weight when it’s on our chest versus a foot away from us versus two-and-a-half feet. It doesn’t make any sense at all. We need to dramatically change that force so that it exhausts us accordingly and that will trigger incredible growth, so that’s where X3 came from.

Dr.Greg Dennis: So you started realizing this data and so that made you look deeper into it, which is then what led you to write the book and come up with this device? Is that correct?

Dr. John Jaquish: Yeah. I don’t want to put down any of the scientists in sports performance, but there’s the basis of everything is that weightlifting is the way it is and then we’re going to look at different ways of weightlifting as the different protocols, and then we’re going to measure them, these two and these two and these two. My position is like I took a step further back and I’m like, “No, not weights, absolutely not weights. We need a variance.”

Coincidentally, of the 16 studies that I identified in the book that shows that are specifically about variable resistance, the higher the degree of variance, the greater the muscular adaptation in hypertrophy and output power. So somebody who has a regular weightlifting bar and they throw a band around it also, and they’re holding X at the bottom and 1.2X at the top, that’s hardly scratching the surface. They need X at the bottom and maybe 5X at the top, not necessarily seven because that’s absolute exhaustion. So you need a greater degree of variability, not just a degree of variability.

Dr.Greg Dennis: So I understood everything you just said, but you threw a bunch of terms out there, variable resistance, hypertrophy and things like that. So put that into layman’s terms if people aren’t familiar with those terms, because you spend a lot of time talking about variable resistance. So if you will, go back a little bit and just define a little bit more about what is variable resistance and then as you mentioned, how that may increase the hyper per or the size of the muscle and that kind of stuff.

Dr. John Jaquish: Sure. So variable resistance is when the resistance changes as you move and what you want to do is have it change so that the weight gets higher where you are stronger, and it gets lighter where you are weaker. In the positions where you’re weaker also, and this is critical, these are where the joints are most exposed to damage. Now, I’ll quote Peter Attia. I’m sure you’re a fan of Peter Attia. He’s an MD and he has a great podcast called The Drive. He does not like lifting weights. He doesn’t like it at all and he doesn’t do it. He does a lot of cardio and he says, “The problem with weightlifting is it overloads joints and underloads muscle.” So he had made the same observation right at about the same time I did. I had the answer; he didn’t, because I had that data from the bone density medical device study. I looked at this data and I’m like, “This is the most incredible thing maybe in sports performance ever. I’m going to change everything.” Did I answer the variable resistance question?

Dr. Greg Dennis: Yes. Yes. So I think maybe you mentioned this in the book, maybe that’s where I got it, but you used a bench press, for example. So on a bench press, you’re going to be weakest at the bottom, correct? So what you’re saying is you have to adapt the weight so that you’re able to push that off your chest, but you could have more weight on maybe the second half of the lift.

Dr. John Jaquish: Right. The resistance is always changing-

Dr. Greg Dennis: Okay.

Dr. John Jaquish: … in accordance to how powerful you are in that position.

Dr.Greg Dennis: Right. Okay.

Dr. John Jaquish: Now, I accomplish this in a very simple, elegant way. I do it with latex, so the more you stretch the latex, now I want people to be clear on this, there’s a lot of elastic-type exercises. You can buy bands for $5 or whatever at Walmart. So there’s a bar that hooks onto these bands, and then there’s a plate that you stand on that the bands go underneath for if you’re doing something like a dead lift or a squat off the floor. If you try and use these bands without the bar, you’ll probably break your wrist. That’s how powerful these things are, because you actually are that strong, you just don’t know it. Like I said, everyone is seven times stronger in a stronger range of motion than they are in the weaker range of motion. They’ve never seen that power before. Totally like a door, they’ve never unlocked, and so once that starts happening, growth happens very quickly.

Dr. Greg Dennis: So muscle growth, you mentioned hypertrophy, which is muscle growth so that’s the main thing that causes muscle size. So you are saying that by using or tapping into this variable resistance, which you do through these heavy bands, you’re going to stimulate much more muscle size than what you would with traditional weightlifting. I

Dr. John Jaquish: As long as you have the bar and the plate because if you don’t have the bar, your wrists will get twisted that’s why I said you’ll break a wrist.

Dr. Greg Dennis: Right.

Dr. John Jaquish: So the device is designed to protect the small joints of the body so that you can get power through the big joints of the body. When I do a chest press, I hold 540 pounds at the top, 300 pounds in the middle, and 100 pounds at the bottom. I exhaust first in the stronger range of motion, so I go to the 540 until I can’t get to the 540. Then I go to the 300. I do that another five repetitions, can’t get there, my last two or three repetitions are in the 100-pound range, but I have completely devastated that muscle.

Dr. Greg Dennis: Okay. So how long have you been doing this, personally?

Dr. John Jaquish: Four years.

Dr. Greg Dennis: Four years, and-

Dr. John Jaquish: Put on 60 pounds of muscle, and I started after my 40th birthday, so I’m 44 now.

Dr. Greg Dennis: Is this all you do as far as working out?

Dr. John Jaquish: Oh, yeah.

Dr. Greg Dennis: Okay. For those of you listening, you can’t see him and I’ve just looked at pictures. Of course, you can see your picture on the title of the book, but you’re huge. You’re jacked, and so you’re saying you got this way through this system of doing bands?

Dr. John Jaquish: Oh, yeah. Yeah. My before and after pictures are in the book, on the x3 website, on my Instagram page, a lot of different places. I lifted weights for 20 years, it really didn’t do much. I put on more body fat than-

Dr.Greg Dennis: I did put on muscle.

Dr. John Jaquish: Yeah. I will say, you might not ask this question, but a lot of people are wondering, “Well, what about genetic differences?” Because a lot of people like to dismiss somebody who’s super fit is all like, “I just have good genetics.” Well, that’s easy to say after someone’s fit, who has good genetics. When you’re just looking at a bunch of people who have never trained before, can you pick them out of a crowd? No, because people don’t really know what that means. There is a good versus bad genetics. It has to do with where your tendon attachment points are. So for example, if the standard person, the standard human being, has the attachment of the pectoral on the sternum and then they have it near the top of the humorous bone, so your upper arm bone, that’s where the pectoral muscle, the chest muscle attaches and pulls that upper arm towards the midline of the body.

Dr. John Jaquish: That would be called bad genetics because you don’t have a lot of leverage on that bone. There are some people, a very small amount of people, whose tendon attachment is further down the bone. Mike Tyson, for example, has intended attachment that’s almost at the opposite end, which is why he can hit people with almost full power when they’re six inches from his face, whereas nobody else can connect. These are people who can use a bench press and grow very quickly because they have a longer lever arm within their own body, and there’s research on this and I lay it out in the book . Now, with variable resistance, we completely take this genetic issue out of the equation. Now everybody has the advantage that those people do. Now everybody can look like an NFL player or a boxer.

Dr. Greg Dennis: So if it grows muscle, so if what you’re saying is true and you’re evidence of that. Like I said, you’re huge. What about you said, this is all you do. Okay.

Dr. John Jaquish: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dr. Greg Dennis: Also, let me go back. The workouts that you recommend are pretty short, is that correct? They’re like 10 minutes.

Dr. John Jaquish: Yeah.

Dr. Greg Dennis: So-

Dr. John Jaquish: Not by design, it’s you’re just devastated after 10 minutes of using it, you can’t do anything.

Dr.Greg Dennis: So within 10 minutes, you’re getting enough muscle damage to grow the muscle. Okay. I guess my question is with that when that’s all that you do, what about cardiovascular? What about general overall fitness? I mentioned before we started recording, I’m not real consistent, but I play around with CrossFit a little bit, and CrossFitters, they define fitness as several things, stamina, strength, flexibility, power, speed coordination, and not just muscle size. So they would say that doing isometric singular exercises are a waste of time because you’re not doing anything for your overall functional fitness. So what would you say to all that?

Dr. John Jaquish: Let me think about this one. I like CrossFitters, they’re dedicated. Let me start with the cardio thing.

Dr. Greg Dennis: Okay.

Dr. John Jaquish: So there’s a meta-analysis I refer to in the bookthat cites over 100 studies that all demonstrate that strength training has a greater influence, equal or greater influence, on cardiovascular health, the health of your cardiovascular system than cardiovascular training does. Now, the myth that strength athletes don’t get a cardiovascular benefit has to do with the fact that a bigger muscle draws more blood. So I weigh 240 pounds and I tell of this story all the time.

My buddy and I travel to Moscow, or used to travel to Moscow quite frequently. He’s 340 pounds. I’m 240 pounds. He’s a marathon runner. So if you’ve ever been to the airport in Munich, it’s like you’re up and down the stairs, the checkpoint, for whatever, your Russian visa, then you got to go through immigration. You got to collect your bag and you’re going up and down and up and down. It’s just like the land of stairs. I don’t know why they did that, other than maybe they just don’t like people, but you got to run up and down the stairs, especially if you’re trying to make a connecting flight.

Dr. John Jaquish: So I’m constantly stuck in Munich, and every time we’d finally get to our flight and I’m covered in sweat and winded like, “Ah. All right, we’re here.” The guy says to me, “Yeah, your cardio is terrible.” I said, “No, it’s not. My cardio is awesome. It’s probably better than yours, but my legs are five times bigger around than yours are. So when I go to use this engine, my quadriceps, it draws a lot of blood and the heart has to work a lot harder because I’m developed for instant power.”

Now it’s like, who wins the race, or who wins the automotive contest and you put a Formula 1 car next to a Prius, and the contest is which gets better mileage? Well, the Formula 1 car is going to lose. It doesn’t mean it’s slow, it doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with it. It is doing what it’s designed to do, and my body can do what is designed to do based on the environment I’ve been placing it in and it can deliver instantaneous power incredibly, so. But can I run a marathon? Of course, it would kill me.

Dr. Greg Dennis: So the X3 is designed for muscle growth strength. That’s just what it does.

Dr. John Jaquish: Right. I encourage people to focus on strength because the stronger muscle is, the thicker the tendons and the ligaments become. When that happens, joints are protected. When it comes to a lot of cardiovascular activity, repetitive motion can have some damage. It doesn’t mean it’s everybody. Yeah.

Dr. Greg Dennis: So comparing it to CrossFit was probably unfair, because it’s just apples and oranges because it’s just different.

Dr. John Jaquish: Yeah. In CrossFit, there are so many things that are done in CrossFit.

Dr. Greg Dennis: Yeah.

Dr. John Jaquish: There are some things that I like in CrossFit. Some things are like, “Wow, you have an ambulance waiting outside? I’m guessing an orthopedic surgeon taught you how to do this,” kind of thing, so meaning he’s going to get business out of it because

Dr.Greg Dennis: Oh, yeah. For sure. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. John Jaquish: Right?

Dr. Greg Dennis: So-

Dr. John Jaquish: A lot more meeting groups sponsor CrossFit game I think that’s just like?

Dr. Greg Dennis: Yeah. No. No, ortho’s not CrossFit. No, there’s no doubt. So you said you’ve done this just exclusively for about four years and so I don’t know if you’ve been over to the gym at all, but will this translate? Dr. John Jaquish: Yeah. I’m ridiculously strong.

Dr. Greg Dennis: Okay. So it would translate.

Dr. John Jaquish: I was a regular guy. I was a chubby 190 pounds when I started this, and now when I trained with some of the NFL players I train with, I’m stronger than they are.

Dr.Greg Dennis: Okay, and that’s using traditional weights?

Dr. John Jaquish: Yeah, and I’m 44 and they’re in their 20s and they’re like, “What the hell?”

Dr. Greg Dennis: Okay.

Dr. John Jaquish: Like, “How are you this strong?’ I’m like, “I just got this way.” Like, “You know me. I figured some stuff out,” but I would say though, that I have raw power and everything and strength has to do with how much sarcoplasm is in the cells. It Has to do with how much myofibril adaptation, meaning the density of the cell. Well, dense, how dense is that muscle cell? The sarcoplasmic is how much contractile energy does it contain, ATP glycogen and creatine are those three things that house the energy within the cells. So it’s fuel, its density, but then also a neuromuscular pattern with every movement. One of the things with CrossFit that you see very frequently, and it’s why I think a lot of CrossFit people, they’re like, “Wow, I gain a lot on the chalkboard, but I don’t look any different.”

Dr. John Jaquish: Well, it’s because you take a complex weightlifting movement, which is as hard to master as a golf swing, you can master that and get better and better and better at it, but it doesn’t mean you’re growing muscle. It’s a skill you’re developing, which is a fine skill to have, but just know where the adaptation is coming from. It’s neuromuscular education. Or throwing a baseball. It’s very hard to become and to pitch a fastball at 100 miles an hour. Not many people can do it, so it’s that type of thing. For me, and I tell these guys, these NFL players, “Your job isn’t to bench press, your job is to push people on the line, focus on that. That is your measure of performance. Can you push the other guy? Can you get him to take a back foot because if you do that, you’re getting paid more? You’ll stay in the league maybe a year, two years, three years longer.” Lineman, do you know how long the average NFL career is?

Dr. Greg Dennis: What is it, 10 years?

Dr. John Jaquish: Three.

Dr. Greg Dennis: Three? It’s three years.

Dr. John Jaquish: Yeah. Well, we’re considering everybody.

Dr. Greg Dennis: Yeah.

Dr. John Jaquish: Quarterbacks, obviously, stick around a lot longer provided they have a good defense than a lineman. But on average three years, they got to earn money. That’s rough.

Dr. Greg Dennis: Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. John Jaquish: Yeah, because they get banged up and it’s like if you can preserve joints, if you can deliver power, then your career’s going to last longer. That’s what I’m focused on with those guys.

Dr. Greg Dennis: Gotcha. So back to the cardio, and I agree with you 100% doing, especially long term cardio does not give you much benefit, especially weight loss making your body look better, that kind of thing. But what about hit training is supposed to be good, so you don’t feel like you incorporate any of that type of stuff in with your X3?

Dr. John Jaquish: I would almost say X3 is like hit training because of the diminishing range. We go through really high repetitions because the weight is ridiculously high with X3. So when I do a chest press, I do over 20 repetitions past 540 pounds or hitting the 540 and then the 300, then maybe five 300 pound reps and then two 100 pound reps. That is a crazy amount of exhaustion from a cardiovascular standpoint, as well as muscular. I’m gasping for air after I do that. In fact, when I first got on this Zoom call with you, I don’t know if you could tell, I had just finished my workout.

Dr. John Jaquish: I was gasping for air. It’s a cardiovascular stimulus also, but it’s not sustained. It’s not a sustained high rate, so I would call that more like hit training, and hit training really works well be because, no it’s different. But when you’re moving weight that’s pretty heavy that’s going to exhaust you pretty quickly so that you can’t sustain handling it, or let’s say you’re moving quickly like doing sprints, you got a lot of stabilization firing going. In 2016, my co-author, Henry Alkire, and myself and we’ll never do this again, wrote a meta-analysis. Never write a meta-analysis. That’s life advice.

Dr. Greg Dennis: Okay.

Dr. John Jaquish: Don’t do that. It’s such a pain, but we wrote a meta-analysis on stabilization firing and the attenuated growth hormone response. So when you have stabilization firing plus load, you can increase your growth hormone levels by 2600%. That’s why hit training works so well because if you look at a sprinter, they have so much stabilization firing. If you look at a skull of a sprinter, it looks like it was lined to up with a laser. If you look at a distance runner and their head’s bobbing up and down the whole time, there’s no stabilization firing. They’ve got a shorter stride. They don’t need it. It doesn’t get turned on, and they don’t get the upregulation of growth hormone. Instead, they get an upregulation of cortisol. Cortisol’s job is getting rid of muscle and preserving body fat, meaning you stay fat or longer, which seems to me to be the opposite of what anybody should want. So the hit training’s great.

Dr. Greg Dennis: Okay.

Dr. John Jaquish:… from a growth hormone.

Dr. Greg Dennis: So you’re getting your heart rate up enough

Dr. John Jaquish: Oh, yeah.

Dr. Greg Dennis:… in doing this, so-

Dr. John Jaquish: Incredibly so.

Dr. Greg Dennis: I just wanted to ask you about the reps, because you mentioned in your book that you do fairly high reps.

Dr. John Jaquish: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dr. Greg Dennis: Me personally, over the years, I’ve been weightlifting. Really, the only time I get stronger and definitely bigger is when I use real heavyweight and so obviously, the heavier weight, the lower reps.

Dr. John Jaquish: There’s no getting away from heavy, but with X3, you’re still going to be able to go high reps in high weight, but that’s a deeper level of exhaustion, especially when you consider the diminishing range.

Dr. Greg Dennis: So you’re saying you’re still going heavy, but you’re just doing higher reps, but that’s still going to grow the muscle?

Dr. John Jaquish: Because you have a sevenfold difference from the strong weaker range.

Dr. Greg Dennis: So this is all you do. Do you get bored with it, doing the same push-pull type exercises for years and years?

Dr. John Jaquish: I get that every once in a while and I have a smart ass response when somebody’s like, “Well, sometimes I just want to mix it up,” and I’m like, “You brush your teeth the same way every day, or do you just use the toilet brush every once in a while just to mix it up just for variety? Just go from the toilet brush and just bury your face in it?”

Dr. Greg Dennis: Yeah.

Dr. John Jaquish: Of course, they’re like, “To hell with you,” they really upset, but I’m trying to point something out. If we know what the optimal is and we know deviating from the only compromise our progress, why would you horse around with anything else? Screw up your rhythm, do this to yourself. I don’t know. I wouldn’t. It’s the same thing. You’re going to do what you need to do, this is the most efficient thing to get your teeth clean or to get muscular stimulation accomplished.

Dr. Greg Dennis: Okay. So these workouts are about 10 minutes and you do a 10- minute workout what, six days a week?

Dr. John Jaquish: Yeah. Six days a week.

Dr. Greg Dennis: And that’s all you do?

Dr. John Jaquish: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dr. Greg Dennis: Wow.

Dr. John Jaquish: Right. I do it in my office or I have an X3 in the trunk of my car. They’re small. The bar. I keep one in the trunk of my car. I keep one in my suitcase.

Dr. Greg Dennis: Yeah. As I said, I’m intrigued about it. I’m getting ready to start a new job here in about six weeks, and so I usually work out at lunch. So I’m thinking about trying this kind of thing just at lunch, but obviously I don’t have travel anywhere.

Dr. John Jaquish: Yeah. Just do it in your office.

Dr. Greg Dennis:… a 10-minute workout or something-

Dr. John Jaquish: This thing fits in a drawer. There’s the four bands that come with it and then the ground plate that you need to stand on for most of the movements, but you can pack it in a drawer.

Dr. Greg Dennis: Right.

Dr. John Jaquish: You can keep it in your office and it’s really simple and straightforward, nothing keeping you from doing it.

Dr. Greg Dennis: Yeah. That’s interesting. Well, let’s talk about some of the other things you do, because you talk about optimizing hormones, you talk about how cardio increases cortisol, which I agree with you 100%, but you were saying that this type of workout, which you may have alluded to it just a minute ago, but this type of workout is going to maximize the hormone response, which also aids in the muscle growth. Is that correct?

Dr. John Jaquish: Both growth hormone and testosterone. So a bigger effect, people used to think the more testosterone you had that the more muscle you grow. No, it’s the more activity in testosterone reception, so the body has to be ready to take it and there’s only one indicator of what triggers that and that is how heavy are you lifting? The heavier the weight you put through the body, the more testosterone receptors are activated. So you don’t need a ton of testosterone. So people who are trying to figure out some way, they get two prescriptions for testosterone replacement therapy from two different doctors and they fill them and they pharmacies and then they think, “Oh, I’m going to have twice the amount of testosterone.” It doesn’t work that way. It’s like if taking two Tylenol gets rid of your headache, taking four Tylenol doesn’t make you levitate. You can’t just float around the room like it’s some god-like drug. It’s not the way it works. It does what it’s intended to do in its minimum dose response, and that’s how testosterone works in the body. If you keep stimulating the receptors, you’ll make more.

Dr. Greg Dennis: Okay. You also talked about a little bit about myostatin. So we want to decrease myostatin which is, if we decrease that, then it’s going to increase muscle building. So you say that the X3 can create a hypoxic effect on muscles, meaning lack of oxygen, thus decreasing myostatin.

Dr. John Jaquish: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dr. Greg Dennis: So how does that compare to traditional weightlifting? Does traditional weightlifting just do it at much less, or how does that work?

Dr. John Jaquish: You went for the most complex part of the book , so-

Dr. Greg Dennis: Listeners probably won’t care about that, but it’s fascinating to me.

Dr. John Jaquish: Sure. Sure. So to get to hypoxia, you’ve got to trick the body into not seeing a certain amount of muscle, like it disappeared. Then so body mass goes down according to the cardiac axis, it says, “Okay, let’s reduce myostatin so we can build some more of this mass,” because all of a sudden is gone and this is a little bit theory, but it’s pretty well backed up by a number of studies that I cite in the book , observing the phenomena, like I’m putting a voice to the central nervous system where it really doesn’t do that. I’m pointing out that when you have blood flown into a muscle, don’t let it flow back. The heart’s going, “Okay. What do we do here?” We reduce myostatin and then more mask can be built, and that reduction in myostatin does last a number of hours. That’s fantastic because it allows you to really change your genetic potential. The reason it doesn’t work with weights is because you can’t get hypoxia, so when you’re curling, curl, as an example, there’s a great example of an inefficient exercise.

Dr.John Jaquish: The max weight is when you’re at a 90-degree angle, when your lower arm is parallel to the ground and your upper arm is perpendicular to the midline of your body. Then as you continue the contraction, the weight actually goes to zero or close to it because you’re aligning the lever arm, which is your lower part of your arm, the fulcrum, let’s call it, is almost parallel to the upper arm. There’s no load on it at all, and that’s one of the problems with the inefficiency of regular weightlifting is that we’ve got lever arms, or fulcrums through the body in that it really adjusts what force is going through the body and can make some parts of movements irrelevant.

Dr. John Jaquish: So when you’re in a squat, when you’re nearing the top, you’re just really loading the bone and you’re not really contracting much of the muscle at all, unless you have variable resistance. When you have variable resistance, now you’re engaging the musculature to a much higher degree, even when you take advantage of a biomechanical efficiency. So at the top of my squat, I might be holding an extra 400 pounds. The bottom of my squat of I’m only holding an extra 50 pounds. It keeps my knees protected, but also gives me uniformity in the intensity of the contraction throughout the movement. Therefore, when I want to maintain hypoxia, I can. Now the only other way to do that is with tourniquets and regular weightlifting. But the problem with the tourniquets is, and you know what I’m talking about with blood flow restriction banding-

Dr. Greg Dennis: Yep. Yep.

Dr. John Jaquish:… the problem with that is your body knows you’re choking part of it, which is why you can’t lift heavy when you have a tourniquet on, so you lift light and then you’re denying the body the testosterone stimulus. But with the way I designed X3 you get the testosterone stimulus with the heavyweight, but because of the variable resistance, you’re also getting the benefit of a maximum hypoxic effect at the same time.

Dr. Greg Dennis: So does traditional weightlifting have any effect on myostatin, or it’s just much, much lower than the bands?

Dr. John Jaquish: It does.

Dr. Greg Dennis: Okay.

Dr. John Jaquish: Yeah, but the more blood you can keep away from the heart for a period of time, and this happens very quickly as we know with the blood flow restriction banding, just keep it away for a minute or something like that, the myostatin drops way off and stays there for quite a bit of time. That’s when your body’s allowed more growth.

Dr.Greg Dennis: Okay. Well, very good. So you do just the X3 workout with bands, and then I also just wanted to touch briefly on nutrition, because you did talk about that in your book.

Dr. John Jaquish: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dr. Greg Dennis: So if people want to look like you, which like I said, you’re huge they can do this type of a workout, but they also need some of these other things. So you do more of a carnivore-ish diet, is that correct?

Dr. John Jaquish: Yeah.

Dr. Greg Dennis: I don’t don’t know when this podcast is going to be released, but I did talk to Dr. Sean Baker and we discussed the carnivore diet. I’m actually a fan. I don’t eat that way 100%, but I am a fan of it. But how long have you been doing that style of eating?

Dr. John Jaquish: I’ve been ketogenic, for 13 years-

Dr. Greg Dennis: Oh, wow.

Dr. John Jaquish: Ketogenics, it was is before people called it that.

Dr. Greg Dennis: Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. John Jaquish: Yeah. Yeah, pretty much just animal protein.

Dr. Greg Dennis: Good for you. Yeah.

Dr. John Jaquish: You’ll relate to me on this. I really don’t like when people call something a ketogenic diet. Ketogenesis is a function of the human body.

Dr. Greg Dennis: Right.

Dr. John Jaquish: All you need to trigger, it is the absence of carbohydrates. It’s not really the diet that makes you ketogenic necessarily, it’s what your body’s doing.

Dr. Greg Dennis: What your body’s doing, yeah. Yeah.

Dr. John Jaquish: Right. The reason I don’t like the term ketogenic diet is because it lumps it in with all kinds of other nonsensical diets like the South Beach Diet or Plan Five Diet or I don’t know, chocolate diet. It’s the principle of human physiology that we don’t engage. I don’t want it to be dismissed and mixed in with all this other stupid crap because it’s not profound.

Now, Dave Asbury’s approach to a nutrition program that encourages ketogenesis, which is really what his Bulletproof Diet does. He didn’t call it the ketogenic diet for a reason because he understands he’s a smart guy. He recommends all kinds of vegetable fats and vegetable oils, not the processed kind of vegetable oil, but avocados.

Dr. Greg Dennis: Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. John Jaquish: He loves avocados. He put avocado and everything. I got mixed feelings on that. I don’t like oxalates and I can feel the inflammation. I know I have oxalates in my system my workout’s going to suck by comparison to if I’m all steak for the past two days.

Dr. Greg Dennis: Yeah. So you’re pretty much an all-meat guy.

Dr. John Jaquish: Pretty much. I like bacterial fermentation and they talk about that in the book. So the majority of protein, I’m running experiment right now where I do 200 grams or the equivalent of the value of 200 grams of protein from bacterial fermentation throughout the day. So I get a one meal a day thing. So it’s like a 23-hour fast every day, and I get the benefit of the fasting period, but then also in that one meal, I’ll do a pound of meat and then so I get the benefit of carnivore nutrition also and a pound of meat, and then my bacterial fermentation is only 16 calories throughout the day. So I’m really getting very little, so I’m eating it a deficit and getting a fasted benefit, so I’m getting very lean very quickly.

Dr. Greg Dennis: Well, one last thing I want to ask you about, because you talk in the book about cellular hydration and steps to amplify growth and hyperplasia, and so you had some steps here that I wrote down that I just thought were useful and interesting. You mentioned to maybe take some creatine and maybe a vasodilator workout, then stretch your muscles and then possibly consume a bunch of carbs right out after you work out. So just talk about what that can do for somebody trying to build muscle.

Dr. John Jaquish: Yeah. Yeah. The problem is when you in fitness, for some reason, if you say something is an advanced technique, the guy who picked up the weight for the first time yesterday believes he’s advanced and wants to just charge hard right into this. I hate that, but it’s just the nature of people, they want the maximum benefit and this is not the kind of thing somebody needs to worry about when they’re a beginner, but it doesn’t matter how many times I say that, the beginners are the ones who, they’re doing it. So if you want to maximize the amount of growth, you want to make sure that you have the maximum amount of hydration within the muscle, which means replacing muscle glycogen very quickly, pushing on the casing around the muscle, the muscle fascia. One of the greatest limits of muscle growth is the casing around it, and you can stretch that out.

Dr. John Jaquish: You can receive extra growth. So hydrating the muscle, stretching the muscle after it’s hydrated or while it’s being hydrated is important. This has been proven with animal models. In fact, Professor Jose Antonio out of the Florida State University, he’s the top in the field of this and creating hyperplasia. So I’ve been applying this and no doubt it works, and there’s human evidence too, and I cite all of that. That’s the other very technical part of the book. I love that you asked the two most technical things, but it’s combining that with the stimulus from the variable resistance that X3 has, or X3 already creates so much blood flow and then you begin to rehydrate the muscle and stretch it and you do get a growth effect that is incredible.

Dr. Greg Dennis: Well, let’s talk about the carbohydrates for a minute, because we were just talking about ketogenic and carnivore. So you mentioned consuming quite a bit of carbs within 30 minutes of your workout. Is that something that you do personally or … ?

Dr. John Jaquish: So I have noticed when I started doing 140 grams of carbohydrates, I’m sorry, 120, which is half of the grams in body weight. That was the lower number that I recommended, I had spillover. It would show up on a glucose meter, like I had a something. Then I felt shitty and didn’t feel good. I don’t like that feeling, because once you’re close to zero carbohydrates, you don’t really like how carbohydrates feel.

Dr. Greg Dennis: Right.

Dr. John Jaquish: Once you get them out of your system and then you have carbohydrates, you’re like, “Wow.” I don’t think I’m supposed to have these because I feel awful. You ask any bodybuilder who carbs up for a contest, they think they’re going to feel super human because they haven’t had carbohydrates in six months and “Oh, I’m going to get that super fuel in my system.” They’re like, “Ugh, I feel awful,” and you do. So I cut it 10 grams every day I did it to 80 and at 80 grams, I almost don’t have an insulin event at all. There’s just a blip, and so I use the muscle glycogen. It goes right into glycogen and then I don’t feel bad. I don’t feel weak. I don’t feel sweaty.

Dr. John Jaquish: I don’t feel the beginnings of hypoglycemia. I know a lot of people say, “Oh, I’m hypoglycemic,” when their hands start to shake or something like that, it’s like, “Hmm, you’ve never been hypoglycemic apparently, because that’s not quite what that is,” but that is the beginnings of that. So I can do a workout and do the carbohydrates and not have a significant enough insulin event to bother, I won’t say, interrupt because it certainly interrupts the fast, but it doesn’t bother me in any measurable way until I get the meal.

Dr. Greg Dennis: So you feel like that’s-

Dr. John Jaquish: It might be hours later.

Dr. Greg Dennis: So you feel like that’s been an advantage for you to do that, to consume those 80 grams of carbs and then eat later? What will you typically eat as carbohydrates?

Dr. John Jaquish: Rice.

Dr. Greg Dennis: Okay.

Dr. John Jaquish: Yeah. Rice, but people are like, “Hey, can I have a piece of pizza?” I’m like, “I’m not your doctor.”

Dr. Greg Dennis: Whatever. Yeah.

Dr. John Jaquish: It’s carbohydrates, honestly it absorbs quick, so how can I say no? Also-

Dr. Greg Dennis: So you do that and then, but you don’t typically work out right before you eat so you’ll do that, eat some type of carbohydrate and then eat your big meal later. Is that what I heard you say?

Dr. John Jaquish: So today for example, I prefer to work out, carbohydrates and then have a meal within an hour afterward. It’ll be about two or three hours today, but I’d prefer it like that, and recently in a new relationship.

Dr .Greg Dennis: Gotcha.

Dr. John Jaquish: Schedules are not really a thing. Hey, I’ll have dinner ready by 7:00 or 8:00 or 9:00, so there’s that. So I can’t time it like I’d really like to be as precise, so I’ve learned to be flexible. I learned that’s just the landscape I live in.

Dr .Greg Dennis: Well, so before we finish, I always ask my guests to give us one tip that can make us healthier today, it can be about anything. What would you say to that? Sorry, I didn’t prepare you for that.

Dr. John Jaquish: You did not. I would say of any principle out there, if you’re not going to bother to like read a book about it or really absorb yourself in the knowledge, because I think the only successful X3 user is the one who really seeks out the information as to why we’re doing all this, because otherwise the edit the program for their own convenience and screw up some of the principles and then the won’t do well. I see that,

I don’t know, with 10% of the users of X3. They go, “Yeah, I’m going to do five sets of whatever,” and I’m like, “Five sets? That is just ridiculous over training,” or you’re half-assing every set and then you’re not really getting much out of it; either way, bad idea, so I see that kind of thing. The easiest thing that will deliver the maximum value in health is a fasted period, letting your gut heal.

Dr. John Jaquish: I had no idea, and the anabolic rebound after a fasted period is awesome. Your body’s ready to grow, your body’s ready to develop new cells after a fasted period. So I just encourage everybody, just eat one meal a day. You can do it. Anybody can do it. I’ve seen people who have zero willpower who will go, “Okay.” You think back on the time where you traveled, the airline food was awful, so you didn’t eat it.

You looked at some gelatinous chicken or something like that on your Delta flight and you’re like, “No, I’m not even going to bother with that.” Then you realize you’re such a hurry to get out the door, you land and then you go to a restaurant and you’re dead tired, and you’re like, “God, I haven’t eaten anything in 35 hours.” Everybody’s had a day like that. Did you die? No. Did you even feel bad? Probably not. You were hustling, you didn’t enjoy the travel. Nobody does. It was okay, and then when you ate, you felt fantastic.

Dr. Greg Dennis: That’s great advice. I asked this question to all my guests and that’s a very popular answer.

Dr. John Jaquish: Okay.

Dr. Greg Dennis: Yeah.

Dr. Greg Dennis: Yeah. Most of the people I’m interviewing are health wellness experts and stuff, and so that’s a very popular answer and I agree, things I’ve learned and as a physician, man, there’s really not a lot that’s more powerful than fasting as far as being able to get all off medications, decrease your insulin levels, or help with insulin resistance, decrease risk of cancer, lose weight. It does so much and it’s free. So yeah, no, I agree with everything you just said.

Dr. John Jaquish: It’s also why it’ll never be promoted.

Dr. Greg Dennis: You absolutely right. You’re absolutely right. Yep. Yep. Big pharma isn’t going to make any money on fasting, so out you’re absolutely right.

Dr. John Jaquish: Software companies are not going to make any money on fasting.

Dr. Greg Dennis: That’s right. That’s right. So when you do your workout, are you always in a fasted state?

Dr. John Jaquish: Always.

Dr. Greg Dennis: Really? Okay. Then you’ll just eat your carbohydrates afterwards, but you always work fasted?

Dr. John Jaquish: Yep.

Dr. Greg Dennis: All right. Well very good. One last question I had I was going to ask you. I just looked on Amazon and stuff. There are, I guess you could call them knockoffs, I don’t know if they’re knockoffs of this or there’s some other systems that are maybe similar out there.

Dr. John Jaquish: Yeah.

Dr. Greg Dennis: Yeah. So how are those different than the X3 ?

Dr. John Jaquish: They look like X3, but they deliver 20 pounds of force, whereas the X3 is 600 pounds of force. You need that based on the understanding, you’re seven times stronger than you think you are, 20 pounds isn’t going to do anything. So these things, they may look similar, a 1980s TransAm may look similar to a Lamborghini, but is it a Lamborghini? No. So what kind of results do you want? Also, we don’t really lose a lot of business to these. We shut a bunch of the knockoffs down, because they’re violating intellectual property that we own and it’s a process and they pop up again under a different name or a different spelling of the same, or a similar word or something like that. We actually don’t lose business to those guys and we actually get them to give us business because what ends up happening is they buy the crappy one for 50 bucks and realize, “Oh, this doesn’t work,” but the concept, they get the concept after just one or two repetitions.

Dr. John Jaquish: Usually, the piece of equipment falls apart and then they’re like, “Okay, I just got to get a X3 bar ,” and they do. In fact, there’s one out there that’s really bad, but it’s the heavier one. I think it might be even be 60 pounds and it breaks constantly. It hits people in the face. The hook will come right and hit you right in the side of the face. They get to feel one or two reps of real variable resistance and they’re like, “Okay, I get it.

Now I understand why x3 costs $550,” because you need a serious piece of gear to deliver some serious force, and that’s what it is. It’s a quality build. It’s amazing. This is anodized aluminum exterior with a solid steel core. Even Olympic bars are hollow. This isn’t more powerful than a regular Olympic bar. It’s just something to keep in mind. You get what you pay for.

Dr. Greg Dennis: Sure.

Dr. John Jaquish: People who buy the cheaper one, they were either looking for a fake fitness thing. There’s people who say, “I work out at home,” and they buy some TRX straps and they hang them from something in the garage and then they never touch them. It’s just so they can say they work out at home. They never really had an intention of any type of real exercise at all. For them, it’s obviously the perfect product, because it allows them lie to themselves and their friends, but that’s human nature. People do that and that’s fine, but if you really want the serious results, there’s only one thing.

Dr. Greg Dennis: Well, very good. So how can people find you? What’s your website?

Dr. John Jaquish: I used to have to bark five different handles to find me in different places. I created a landing page. It’s doctorj.com, D-O-C-T-O-R the letter J.com. There’s links to my Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, different websites, where you can find the different products, different nutrition websites, and exercise science websites.

Dr. Greg Dennis: Perfect.

Dr. John Jaquish: drj.com.

Dr. Greg Dennis: Very good. Okay.

Dr. John Jaquish: All right.

Dr. Greg Dennis: John Jaquish, we certainly appreciate your time on a very interesting subject.

Dr. John Jaquish: Thank you. All right.

Dr. Greg Dennis: All right, guys. Well, thank you guys for listening and we will talk to you next time. Thank you for listening to Fit Rx.